MTSS Isn't Another Initiative, It's the Plate Everything Sits On

In this episode, Jackie and Ed sit down with Dr. Samantha Mullins. Founder of MTSS By Design, to tackle a common misconception that MTSS is just another initiative.  Dr. Mullins explains why MTSS is not something extra; rather, it is the foundational system that holds your entire school's instructional frameworks together, supporting coherence and ongoing school improvement.  

What you will Learn

Smarter Design, Not Harder Effort: Why MTSS breakdowns are usually about system flaws, not lack of trying.

The Power of Tier 1: How clear routines and core instruction are everyone's responsibility and how tight Tier 1 implementation benefits all learners.

Quick Leadership Wins: Practical insights to small system shifts you can implement tomorrow.

Bio:

Dr. Samantha Mullins is the Founder and CEO of MTSS By Design, where she partners with district and school leadership teams to lead K–12 systems transformation through coherent, sustainable Multi-Tiered Systems of Support (MTSS). A nationally and internationally recognized MTSS strategist and education consultant, she works with leaders to strengthen Tier 1 instruction and align assessment, intervention, and professional learning into a unified system rather than disconnected initiatives. Her work centers on system design, leadership decision-making, and change management that support clarity, coherence, and opportunity for all learners at scale. Dr. Mullins’ work in MTSS helps leadership teams move from vision to implementation by reducing fragmentation and building durable instructional systems that can adapt and endure. 

Resources:

www.mtssbydesign.com
samantha@mtssbydesign.com
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/mtssbydesign

#jackeduppodcast #newpodcast #education #knowledgeispower

 #global #professionaldevelopment

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

We're Jack Up? Oh yeah. About education all day. Bright mind, bold moves, let's elevate. We're talking schools, we're breaking rules, we innovate. We are Jacked Up, yeah, about education today.

SPEAKER_06 0:22

Jacked Up, an educational podcast hosted by Jackie and Ed. Jacked Up dives headfirst into the wild world of learning with unfiltered energy, sharp insights, and a profound love of all things education. For classroom innovations and policy debates, the quirky pedagogy and unexpected lessons from the trenches, this podcast breaks down complex topics with humor, heart, and a whole lot of passion. If you're an educator, lifelong learner, or just someone who believes that curiosity is a superpower, get ready to get jacked up about education. Brought to you by Alignment Consulting LLC. Intentional strategies, impactful solutions.

unknown 1:06

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

About education today.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

All right, welcome, listeners, to another episode of the Jack Dub Podcast. If you are a first-time listener, welcome. If you listened to our episodes before, welcome as well. We're really excited because we're making a connection to a past episode where we had Dr. Burke Halder on, which he talked about the discipline gap and specifically multi-tiered system support, or other known as MTSS, in which he really talked about the personalization of looking at behavior and how to support students and meet them where they are. They also talked about student voice and some of those decisions. Today we're going to take a little shift and look at MTSS from an academic perspective. And so we're really excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

And our guest today is Dr. Samantha Mullins, and she is the founder of MTSS by Design, a national and international consulting practice focused on helping students and districts design MTSS as a coherent instructionally grounded system. She partners with leaders to strengthen tier one instruction, align leadership decisions, and move beyond fragmented initiatives towards sustainable support and enrichment for all students. Dr. Mullins is a published thought leader on MTSS and currently writing a book focused on practical system design that works in real school context. And I feel like before we get started, Jackie and I were talking about MTSS, and we kind of recognize that our listening base is expanding and we have people that are new to education, some people not even into education. And I think Dr. Mullins, if we could just start by having you define MTSS and um what it means so that everybody kind of gets that same foundation and then we'll jump in.

SPEAKER_05 2:49

Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here with you guys. And when we Yeah, so when we think about defining MTSS, first and foremost have to acknowledge that this is one of the most, I would say, at least in my experience, misunderstood terms. When I work with various schools, districts, nationally, and even internationally, I find that MTSS can mean different things to different people within their context. The one common misconception I often hear and encounter is that MTSS is a response to struggle. So when students begin to struggle, that's when we begin to provide support. That I think is one of the most true understandings of what MTSS is and how it functions. And currently, right now, I'm writing a book with my co-authors, Dr. Lynn Kohlich and Dr. Lindsay Prendergast. And when we thought about, okay, how do we define MTSS in our first chapter? How are we really going to go ahead and level set and ensure that there's a coherent meaning around what MTS is, MTSS is? So really what we've come to define it as is a system design responsibility that ultimately organizes instruction response continuous improvement so that every learner experiences meaningful grade level learning with access support and challenge that's ultimately needed to move forward. And when we think about, well, what's a system design responsibility? That means that MTSS is intentionally built into how instruction, response, and improvement are organized from the start rather than layered on after difficulty first appears. So when we think about really level setting what MTSS is, it is your designing framework. MTSS is continuous improvement. It is not something we do as an initiative on the side. It is how we operationalize one tier one instruction, how our supports are connected to it, and enrichment and extension are connected to it.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

So I'm excited to hear what you just talked about because I I know that we looked at um, Ed and I looked at some of the frameworks that you have visibly of what this looks like systematically. And it's a diamond shape, which a lot of times we see kind of that triangle shape. And I like that because it really talks about that extension or that pushing kids forward. Because I think working in Title I all my life, advocate for the students that need it, rightfully so, I really feel like there's also that other piece that we say to what extent are we supporting kids and pushing them forward, right? Meeting where their needs are and getting them above and beyond. So what do you say about that, Dr. Mullins?

SPEAKER_05 5:28

Yeah, so that is a great question, and it's a question that I am often asked. And so when we think about the diamond model, first and foremost, what I'll say is I call tier one the anchor very intentionally. And so what we're used to with the triangle is we have tier one and then we have our support and intensive support, right? And that's and that's the framework we operate from within the triangle. And so the diamond really it visualizes, okay, we have tier one, we have support and interventions that are theoretically connected to what we're doing within tier one. But also for our students that are ready for more, we have extension and enrichment. And I think there's something really important about one, just naming that individually, because if that's not something we're naming, if that's not a framework we're operating from, it's very, very easy and understandable to not intentionally put our nightmare.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

Because the amount of work and priorities that educators are on a daily basis juggling, it's it's important to name that, otherwise it gets lost in the mix. Um, so what I will say is when we look at our students who are our quote unquote, I don't love the term high performers, right? But our students that are in the 80th, 85th, 90th, 90th, fifth percentile for growth and achievement, what we see is those students in particular, their growth has stalled post-COVID. It's not to say that they're not growing at all, but they're not growing at the same rate as they were prior to.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Right. So you think of potential, right? So the potential is stalled.

SPEAKER_05 7:04

The potential is stalled. The potential is stalled. And then what I will say is when we think about the diamond model, and this is something I I always like to point out, in the the model that I utilize, there's an arrow that runs through every single tier, right? We have our five tiers, tier one being the anchor, tier two support to the left, tier two enrichment to the right, intense intervention to the left, and extension to the right. And there's an arrow that connects it all very intentionally, and that's meant to be instructional coherence. So oftentimes what we see is we have what we're working on within tier one, and in my ideal world, and I'll probably say this again a thousand times throughout this podcast, um, I'm a big advocate of pre-unit assessments, not just measuring where we are after the fact. But let's say we have an upcoming unit, we know these are our priority standards, pro power standards, whatever people, you know, they're all whatever keyword they want to put in front of standard the standard, um, but these are the standards that are really gonna be focused on within this unit. Let's gauge our students' readiness to really engage with this material. So for example, if we give a pre-unit assessment, and I'm gonna give an example of to ninth graders, right? And we see that 70% of the students uh thereabouts are struggling with a key prerequisite skill, that tells us one thing, that one, prior to, we want to work to address, strengthen, and revisit that skill. But two, that also informs us about what's happening within tier one in eighth grade, or perhaps prior to. So what we only we don't want to just utilize our data to respond, otherwise we're constantly kind of pat doing patchwork, right? We want to take that data and say, hey, this is information that's not meant to be punitive, it's not meant to be judgmental, but it's information that we also want to share with eighth grade about, hey, when you're addressing this skill, we're noticing that perhaps the students need a double dose of instruction. Perhaps the students we need to spend a little bit more time here, differentiate, et cetera. But it so when we think about data and MTSS, it's not about just responding, but also really thinking about first and foremost, what are we doing within tier one?

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah, and that's where I think, and I know in in Dr. Burkholder's episode we talked about that that really is the frontline piece, right? Like tier one's got to be tight, it's gotta be good, it's gotta be strong, and that's where all the work should be happening because, from my understanding, is we want to catch and be great there so that the interventions are less likely on the end, right? Otherwise we have that upside-down triangle. Um, and and so when I hear you talk about intentional, like instructional coherence, I love that. Um, what do you feel about then? In my experience, I have a lot of pushback of leaders who don't want to mandate or make an instructional framework a mandate for their teachers. So for example, we don't expect them to write lesson plans, or if we do, they can choose what they want. So, from my perspective, I see such an opportunity of getting people on the same board about best practice, like what you talked about as pre-assessment is one, just one aspect or component, right? So, like what what do you feel in regards to the importance of an instructional framework that's sound that everybody operates from? Not to say I'm teaching like you, but I'm drawing on base practice. So, you know, could you talk a little bit about that, the power of the lesson design itself?

SPEAKER_05 10:40

Well, I would just say instructional coherence in my professional opinion is fundamental and foundational. And so if when we're looking at this from a district leader's perspective, if we have what I refer to as a lot of variability, school to school, classroom to classroom, and by variability I mean maybe we're it's not about everyone doing the exact same thing every single day. Having coherence doesn't strip teachers of creativity, how they want to engage with lesson design and pedagogy. But ultimately, we do need to have, let's say, across third grade district wide, we need to have our shared learning goals, our learning objectives. Do our students know what they're learning and more importantly, why they're learning this and how to show growth? And so if we don't have that shared curriculum, assessment, instructional practices that we have identified as best practices, when we go to look at our data, right, we're comparing apples to oranges. So oftentimes I I like to call these bright spots. Whenever I meet with the district, inevitably someone says, Oh, but this classroom is doing something really great here, or this school is really excelling in X, Y, and Z. And I'll say, okay, and that's you know, we have our bright spots, but we want to make sure that our entire district is on the same page, not just certain classrooms or schools. And so by working towards instructional coherence and just coherence in general, right, between assessment curriculum and instruction, that really ensures that when we look at our data, we can say we know that these students have had similar experiences. They haven't had dissimilar experiences. And it helps us get to the root cause of whatever we might be identifying as a priority and said solution that's in alignment with that priority, and ultimately driving decisions that move the needle forward. Because when we have a lot of variability, one, students, their educational experience is left a chance, right? When we have it's ultimately dependent upon the school or the classroom or the teacher. And then two, like I said, those choices we make, the strategic decisions we make, we know they're grounded in coherent evidence. And when we're looking at making choices, we do need to look at our evidence. Um I'm not saying everything, everything, everything we do is grounded in data, and I will say qualitative data is data itself. Right, right, but it's very powerful, but we need to ensure that we're comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, I love that. I think the other thing you were talking about with the pre-assessment is how how are you going to measure growth if you haven't had a pre-assessment.

SPEAKER_05 13:34

Exactly, exactly. And sometimes people, educators, will point towards, oh, the previous year or beginning, middle, end of year data, which is ultimately anchored in domains. Uh however, when we're looking towards ultimately supporting our students, that data needs to be tied to our current grade level curriculum and standards that we're immediately working on.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Yeah, I like that you always bring that back to as I'm not doing what feels good. That's the phrase. You know, I don't just do what feels good or what I enjoy to teach about, but we're constantly using those standards as the North Star. And so we we always hear don't ever want to feel like we're beating up on educators because we all know that educators come doing their best. And I know that you've talked about that like the challenges are not about effort. It's not about malice or effort. But again, when you're talking about something that's systematically intentional, it's really about leadership. And so what do you find are some of the some of the leaders m misunderstand or misinterpret about MTSS implementation that is common? You know, again, not that they're trying to, you know, make a school not be effective, but what do you see as some of those common misunderstandings from leaders that need a little support to get on track?

SPEAKER_05 14:52

Yeah, I will say when, and this is just um a common thing I hear, and it's not universal. It's not to say every single leader I have worked with subscribes to this or believes this, but there's this, you know, we we see trends. A trend I notice is that MTSS is something that happens on a bookshelf in a corner of a school in a building. It's not our operating framework, or MTSS really isn't my job, right? That is our coordinator's job. That are those are in the jobs of our interventionists. And truly, you know, I remember I was speaking with a colleague once and I said tier one, and they said, Tier one, that's not MTSS. MTSS is tier two and tier three. And that that mentality tends to still be very prevalent. So when I think about leaders and ultimately how sometimes they approach or don't approach MTSS, is it's not woven in as a district-wide initiative that is ultimately the operating framework for continuous improvement. It is seen as something somebody else does somewhere else.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Right. Right. It's said it's something that we did that or will do that. Instead of like the systematic approach that you the top-down looking at it and saying, does the system organize itself and ask themselves, is what we do connected to the system?

SPEAKER_01 16:16

And I think it really I it sounds simplistic, but I think it does go back to the fact that everybody's used to that triangle, right? And and Yep. And it's a it's it's just a shift. It's really just making that shift and recognizing that it is systemic, it and it impacts everybody, and it's everybody's responsibility.

SPEAKER_05 16:35

Absolutely. And I will say I was speaking with a leader once and it was they were saying, okay, well, how would we, if we're to partner together, what might this look like, sound like, feel like? And I said, I always, always think that we need to start with district leadership. Because if this is not understood and level set district-wide, that then says how do we bring it down to the building leaders and the APs, right? And then how do we trickle it down to our grade level leads or our department leads, etc.? We need to have that coherence around what MTSS is and how we ultimately operationalize it at a district level. And this leader said, Oh, I I never really thought about starting with the district level. And I understand that. I understand that because it is how MTSS has been positioned until now is something that's happened over there that some someone else does for interventioness. And when we think about the load our interventionists are carrying, right? Um, this is, you know, that this is a tier one initiative first and most, but really kind of changing the thinking around that so our interventionists aren't kind of on these lone islands carrying this themselves.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Yeah, and so I'm hearing you say that it it, you know, we have to make time for this for all to engage. You know, we have to have routines that this becomes just part of the way we do what we do. I mean, I think that's what I'm really, really hearing you say.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

And I think it'd be possible to like could you could you break down and give an example of what that might look like on so the tier one in terms of what it might look like at both ends? Yeah, so I'm and the coherence there too, because we talked about it.

SPEAKER_05 18:19

I will do my best to do all those things. Yeah um but I will say the one thing that Jackie, I heard you say, and then Ed, you're kind of adding on to this, is time as an infrastructure. Right? When we look at kind of our edutopia, I didn't coin that phrase, but in our ideal world of what MTSS could look like, sound like feel like, the first thing anyone will call out is that requires time, and we we don't have that. Yes. Right? And when it's something that's layered on, no, you don't have that, right? That's why it's important that it's not a layer that we're putting in.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

It's not something else on your plate, right?

SPEAKER_05 18:53

It is the foundation and how we are organizing ourselves. So first and foremost, time is an infrastructure, whether it is our grade level meeting, our PLC, whatever meeting we're having that is consistent, having an agenda that is aligned to our multi-tiered systems of support, tier one being the anchor. And so what I always like to say is I've I've said this to so many people and fill and blue in the face, I am a huge advocate of a good old-fashioned racy chart. So within this meeting, we have identified who is responsible, accountable, consulted, and informed. And first and foremost, these conversations about MTSS, they include everyone. They're not just for our student support team, they're not just our interventionists, right? Or what people oftentimes can say, oh, that's FET. No, this is everyone, Janet, Bet, everyone coming together. And really having a meeting, again, that's anchored in our priorities, our tier one standards, data, pre and post, and having a weekly meeting where we're we have exit tickets, right, that are aligned again towards those goals. So we're progress monitoring our students and really intentionally having conversations that are anchored in academics in this case, because that's the context of this conversation. But I will say MCSS is larger than academics, it's of course behavior attendance, however, behavior and attendance ultimately impact academics. Academics impacts behavior in attendance. So these are these are these it's all braided together. But I would ultimately say time is an infrastructure, having very intentional meetings with clear objectives and individuals who are responsible for, as silly as this might sound, giving their seal of approval on next steps. Because we've all been in I'm a former teacher, we've all been in these shoes, right? We've all been former teachers. And oftentimes in meetings, without an individual saying, okay, these are our next steps and seal of approval, this is what we're doing, it becomes, okay, so who wants to look into that? Let's loop back to that. It can quickly become a kicking of the cat situation. So that's why I always come back to with our racity chart, what decisions are we going to what questions do we have? What decisions do we need to make? And who is responsible for saying, yes, this is these are our next steps. We're all moving forward as a team. That answer your question, I I warned you I can rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

So no, that's amazing. No, it's great too. And and and I know um PBIS, I did that with the school too, and we we had an action plan and it was really very well defined in terms of the steps, a timeline, progress monitoring, who was responsible for each component of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah, and I love that real specific, you know, we try here to be real intentional about kind of like what we say is like doable, practical, valuable things we could do tomorrow. Because I think listening to this on the outside, it might be like, Wow, that's a heavy lift. There's a lot she's talking about. We're talking about it actually the operational piece. No, yeah, right. But what I go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

No, is if you're a classroom teacher, you're probably like, oh, here we go, another responsibility. But I think what it's really doing, uh teachers are already doing this, but it helps them to organize it, it helps it to be intentional, it makes sure that they're actually looking at at data and and using that data to um you know, for future decisions that they might be making.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

And what I will say is it has the potential to reduce burnout and promote collective efficacy. Because what we see is that teachers are individually doing a lot of these things. But when you carry this load on your shoulders by yourself, it it's not sustainable. So when it's built into the system, then it's no longer one person or a few people over here working towards this. It's our entire system supporting this. These aren't my students, these are our students, and how are we all working together to support them?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

So does that get embedded like in in team meetings, this structure and and revisiting it?

SPEAKER_05 23:07

Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. The team meeting should be organized around that.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 23:12

Agenda should be predictable, similar, um, with that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah, and so, you know, kind of back to that idea. So even thinking of what that looks like and and when we meet, um, any any other examples of some kind of like small um moves that we can make either as a teacher or the building and get high-leverage shifts. For example, I know some of the work you talk about, just again, back to instruction, tightening some instructional routines, right? Like you just mentioned closure and exit tickets. Like there's so much to that, right? Like, are we even doing uh exit tickets and are we doing them with fidelity, right? So are there some other pieces, Doctor, that you would say can make big impact?

SPEAKER_05 23:54

And I would say even with our exit tickets, you know, when we have those team meetings, similar across the grade level. So again, we're comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. It's not, you know, it different exit tickets. We're all doing the same thing. We're looking at collective data. What I will say, I just I think this is fundamentally important, is having a learning objective, not for the sake of having it on the board and kind of, you know, ta-da, someone comes in, here's my learning objective, it's there. But having a learning objective and really taking the time with the students to say this is what we're working towards. You know, where are you along this pathway? And then really ultimately student voice in here, getting students' feedback on how did this lesson go, not in a critiquing way, but in a like, where did this feel easy? Where did this start to feel challenging? Did it start to feel challenging? Did it start to feel confusing? I would say that's a high-leverage move. When we get our students feedback right away, we're designing the system not just for them, but in partnership with them. And so when we continue to build on our tier one standards and skills, now our students are telling us where it felt challenging, where it felt easy, where they could use a double dose of instruction.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah, that's student responsibility and voice. I mean, we heard that in Dr. Burkholder talk again, your stakeholders. Why are we making the decisions and not letting kids talk? And and you just you just tapped into Dr. Cortez's episode, which was really about the power of you know putting the ball in the learner's court with just that simple learning target. Like that research came out for a reason, Doctor, right? Not to check a box, not for me to say when you walk through you see it, but the power that we know that when students take that responsibility for understanding their learning, um, and you you talked about progress monitoring earlier, and I was going to ask you to what extent would you say then should students be involved in that? Like what could that look like for students in a classroom? Maybe give a couple examples. Because we know the power of that, right? You know, not just me holding the grade book and marking checks, but what what what could progress monitoring look for students at, say, a couple different grade levels?

SPEAKER_05 26:06

Absolutely. And at one, students should be definitely be involved in that, right? It shouldn't just be a teacher checking a box and giving out a score. It should be that conversation, right? It should be give me a reflection of how this bells people. Where where was their struggle? Where was their ease, and what are our next steps? What can our next steps be together? And when I was a teacher, I would have my students create portfolios. So they were always monitoring their progress in real time. We had a portfolio where they reflected on their learning, they reflected on their growth towards our learning goals. So really having that port, you know, this is just you don't have to do this, this is a me thing, but when we think about how can we incorporate our students, a portfolio where they reflect on their learning journey in real time. And when it comes time for parent-teacher conferences, that is what they would use to lead the parent-teacher. Students leave that. And so really want to- And when we think about agency, this is the shift of going from having, you know, the teacher is the driver, the students in the backseat, to you're the driver. I'm I'm a facilitator. I'm here to support you. I'm your biggest champion. I want to see you succeed. I believe in you. And I will say I think belief is one of the most powerful and important underpinnings to everything we do. Students can sense when someone believes in them and doesn't believe in them. So really empowering students, believing in them without condition, right? Just believing because they're here and I I believe in you. And ultimately allowing for them to reflect on their learning and whatever that might look like. You know, we talk about like thinking classrooms, right? Where we think aloud. So creating those experiences for students where they can think aloud. So the first time they're reflecting on their learning isn't in their portfolio. Uh, that's where they're kind of ultimately sharing X, Y, and Z and like I said, really coming to and having that overall where they lead that conference with those.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

That's amazing. Those student-led conferences and the shift that happens. We implemented those at our juni at our at our middle school, and it was amazing to see initially the kids were very um reluctant to do that.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

And you know, and but as they got more comfortable with kind of going through their learning and and seeing they were critical, but also very gained a lot of confidence and they were really spot on in terms of of where their weaknesses were, where their strengths were and and areas they needed to improve upon. It was it was really fascinating to witness.

SPEAKER_05 28:38

And there's something about students calling that out themselves, right, naming that themselves. Oh, 100%, yeah. Being told that. When you're forced to really think through something, get to the root cause of it. And you I you're right, they're very critical. I would say my students were so critical, and I was like, I don't I would be you're being way hard on yourself.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

And another example I thought of, like the teachers initially, they were very reluctant because they're like, How's that gonna work, right? They loved it. The teachers uh like uh initially it was another responsibility, but then as they saw the kids and how they kind of attached themselves to it and the and the pride they took in it and the parents like sitting through a conference that their kids really leading was was ma it was really magical. It was amazing to see.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Well and yeah, go ahead, Doctor.

SPEAKER_05 29:27

Oh, I was just saying it's empowering, it's giving agency, it's leadership skills, right? And it's really saying your voice matters, and we not even does your voice matter, but we trust your voice. Your voice carries weight in our system and in our setting.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yeah, and I use the analogy of like sports. I mean, again, we gotta get the students on the court. You know, they shouldn't be sitting on the bench where I'm the coach telling you, right? Like learning happens by those doing. That's such a basic statement, but it it's so powerful. And it's again, it doesn't have to be as as extensive as a portfolio. That's a great goal and and conferences. But I mean, even when I think of, you know, even when I think of just asking students that informal, like give me, you know, thumbs as one that's around um to what extent, three, two, one, like quick write, you know, sentence stems, any of those where students are being reflective of you gave me the target at the beginning of the lesson, and I felt this way about it, but here where I am now, and here where I am at the end, right? Like, even those little nuggets to me are so powerful because they're doing the kinds of things that we're talking about that's powerful. Students are getting a voice, students are being reflective, I'm not doing the work for you. I think that's why we're exhausted as educators. I feel like I've done it for 30 students all day long, or a hundred and some for a high school teacher. It's like, no, like like design it and let it go. Design and let them do, right? Right? So that's cool.

SPEAKER_05 30:53

Um smarter, not harder. 100%. Our students should be working hard with us.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah, and I think that's what too, when you went back to saying that we're all individually working hard as educators, but if we get together and do some of these things with coherence, that all that hard work we're doing is going to make that much more impact when we're we're kind of all on that same team, I think. Um anything else that you can think of from your observations with districts and and teachers that you would say are common threads, again, not everybody, but just common threads that you would like to point out for our listeners in in thinking about this topic.

SPEAKER_05 31:29

I feel like we've talked about many of the common threads I see. What I will say, just from an asset-based lens, is the biggest common thread is I see so much interest in MTSS and for the right reasons. So we have a world full of educational leaders, educators who are absolutely committed to their students and they're committed to what many people say figuring this out, right? I was just speaking with um an MTSS district leader the other day, and she was sharing that one of her teachers expressed to her, you know, I feel like we're always trying to figure out MTSS, to which I told her, one, that's common, then that's the one thread I see nationwide is everyone is kind of in this process of trying to figure it out and what it is. And I see a high level of commitment to doing what is correct for our students. You know, oftentimes we talk about how burnt out teachers are, how people uh teachers are leaving the workforce after five years, et cetera.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Right.

SPEAKER_05 32:35

But I really just also want to point out the the deep commitment I see from educators to their students and ultimately doing what is correct for them, not just academically, but socially, emotionally, uh the whole child approach we see. So I think any of the positive things that I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

A good program is gonna be fluid. It's gonna be constantly changing and adapting to where the s the kids are and what the school environment is, and um it's it shouldn't be stagnant, right? It should be always challenging you and we're ever evolving.

SPEAKER_05 33:11

So it kind of embracing that we're ever evolving. Yes, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

And I I like the commitment piece that you talk about and it really I think MTSS as a system of coherence and the way we operate really also the and the assumption of the mindset is that all students have possibility, right? Because if if we come in at it from a framework or a thought of like only the middle, we're gonna teach to the middle, which historically, let's be honest, historically that's kind of been the vibe. I do my thing and either you get it or you don't, because it's the bell curve. So I think too, Doctor, this might have been your experience that a lot of it I feel we do based on what we believe, right? Our actions drive by our beliefs. And I think sometimes it's about a belief conversation, right? Like let's just be intentional in our conversation about do you believe that the students who sit in front of you, all 30 of them or all 150 of them, have a place to then improve wherever that entry point is and to continue to move forward, right? Because that's a different shift than I do my job. And if you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.

SPEAKER_05 34:21

Oh, a hundred percent. And that's why I oftentimes come back to we can talk strategy and systems all day, every day, if belief is not the foundation that all of this is resting upon. I don't want to say it's in vain, but it's gonna make it a lot harder if if we don't believe that everyone can grow and can learn at high levels. And to your comment regarding how we teach to the average, whenever I work, if it's a professional development learning session, if I'm working with teachers one-on-one, district leaders one-on-one, one of the very first things we'll talk about is teaching to the average and the myth of average. And I had the great, great fortune of reading the book, The End of Average, when I first began teaching. And I will say I didn't realize it then, but I now I can see it now. That book shaped how I viewed what I didn't yet know was MTSS. At this moment in time, I didn't know there was an operating system called MTSS. I was a first-year teacher. Uh, I just knew that, huh, this man is really calling into question the concept of average. And it's ultimately stated in this book that when you teach to the average, you teach to nobody. He gives the example of the US Air Force and fighter jet pilots and how fighter jets were built for the at this moment in time, the average male. So average height, arm width, etc. And you took the top talent in the nation. At this moment in time, our top technology, we put them together, and planes were literally crashing and burning, people were losing their lives, and they could not figure out why. So they brought in the consultant, the consultant came in and he said, You've designed this to the average. And there go, you've designed this for nobody. You need to design to the edges. And they they went back to the people who made the planes and said, Love it.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Yes, that's see those kinds of stories give me goosebumps. That's so powerful, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 36:35

And that's what MTF is is designing to the edges. So that's why I did not create the diamond. I've just added my own little things to it. But that's what I love about the diamond, is it designs to the edges, but still through the vein of instructional code.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

And we need to include that in our notes. And I think I one of the cool things about education in most states is that the summer kind of gives you an opportunity to pause and reflect and kind of start planning for the the upcoming year. And so if you're an educational leader out there, you're listening, and you know you're stuck in that traditional framework that MTSS, you know, with the triangle, and you're like, what are they talking about? Like what's what what can you do as a school leader? What would you encourage a school leader to do to kind of revamp what what their school might be doing or what their district might be doing?

SPEAKER_05 37:24

First and foremost, I don't love the term audit, but I would examine to the extent coherence is present and or not present. And you know, we talk about I talk a lot about jagged learning profiles, right? We all have areas of opportunity, we all have areas where we need to, formerly known as weaknesses, but what is areas of opportunity meaning problems? And so we all nobody is a straight line down the middle back to the the average. And so when we even look at our districts, nobody's we we do some things really, really well. There are some things where we might need to dive a little deeper, double-click there. But first and foremost, coherence. And I have a coherence audit um that I can share with you that you're absolutely welcome to share with listeners. But that's a great place to start is just examining to what extent are we coherent along the lines of instruction, assessment, curriculum, um, pain meetings, etc. So that's something I can share with you. But I would say always begin with coherence because if coherence is not present, it's hard to build shared habits and systems instruction.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

100%. That's that's powerful. So as as we wrap up, I first and foremost I want to ask, so when is the book coming out?

SPEAKER_05 38:46

So I the final date that I we're handing it over is September 15th. And I believe it's scheduled to come out back to school 27, 28. Uh so excellent.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

So you've got to keep us up to date with that because we'd love to have you back. We can discuss that and share that with our audience. I know they would love to look into that. That would be great.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Yeah. And so, you know, just in closing, I think some of the big ideas that I've heard um is that, you know, MTSS, multi-tiered systems of support, is a system that everybody owns and partakes in, right? It's it's an organizational piece. It's not just a set of interventions. It's it's the plate. It's not what I'm adding to the plate, it's the plate. How's that?

SPEAKER_05 39:29

Can I quote you for the Yes? Just send the text to my yeah, just send it not what you put on it. Yes, thousand percent.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Yes, because we do. We have all these other things that come and go that we layer on the plate, but it it it is the plate, it's not a program. Um and again, it it I I love that you, you know, brought it back to the center, which is tier one, which I've always been in in love with instructional design and the power of just getting good and tight out of the gate to me just makes everything that much more easier within a system like that. Um, you know, and just kind of talking about the power of it and some of the good things that you said that we can do tomorrow, you know, back when we go back to school. What are some of the things that I can do to have already move a little bit closer? But in our notes, we will definitely put your resources, please, if you don't mind, so our listeners can dive into that and and get a look at that. But we really thank you for being here today. Ed, anything you want to say as we wrap up? It was great.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Just clarify, it's okay to put your contact information if people want to reach out to you directly.

SPEAKER_05 40:33

Absolutely. I'd be more than happy to have people reach out, so feel free to share my website, my email. I'll share the coherence audit that I mentioned and a dime individual so people can see what we've been talking about.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Yes, I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 40:48

That's excellent.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

So thank you for your time. We know you're very busy. We've really enjoyed having you here with us today, and I know our listeners are going to feel the same.

unknown 40:56

Great.

SPEAKER_05 40:56

Well, I really appreciate you guys inviting me on here, and I've really enjoyed the conversation as well.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

All right. Kitty up. So thank you so much, and everybody else will see you soon.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

That brings us to the end of today's episode of Jacked Up. I hope the ideas we explored gave you something meaningful to think about, something you can apply, and something that expands the way you see the world.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

If today's conversation helped you learn, grow, or understand a topic a little more deeply, make sure you follow and like. Share this episode with someone who's curious, someone who loves learning, or someone who could benefit from the insights we covered.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

And if you'd like to support the work we're doing, leaving a review goes a long way in helping more listeners discover the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Until next time, stay curious, stay engaged, and keep leveling up your mind. And most importantly, stay jacked up. Signing off.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Oh yeah, about education today.